About
"Stick to your guns, because each time we did, we succeeded. And each time you gave up, if you gave a little, the networks sort of would view it as weakness and jump into that area, and make you do work that was less good. You shouldn't compromise."
In his five-hour interview, Allan Burns (1935-2021) describes his early years as a page and later a story analyst at NBC in Los Angeles. He outlines his move into the animation field, working for the legendary Jay Ward on The Bullwinkle Show and Fractured Flickers, and recounts the unusual publicity campaigns that accompanied the animated shows. He speaks of his work for Ward on the advertising campaign for "Cap'n Crunch"— a character that Burns himself invented. Burns talks about working with writing partner Chris Hayward on the series My Mother the Car, He & She, and Get Smart, and discusses his work as a writer, then as producer on the first season of the groundbreaking series Room 222 — his first association with producer-director Gene Reynolds and writer-producer James L. Brooks. Burns then details his co-creation (with Brooks) of the classic sitcom The Mary Tyler Moore Show. He chronicles the creation of the concept for the series, the casting process, and memorable episodes. He recalls later series he wrote and produced at MTM Productions (a tenure that lasted over twenty years) including Rhoda, Lou Grant, The Duck Factory (starring Jim Carrey), and FM. B-roll consists of publicity pieces from Jay Ward Productions and photographs from several MTM series. Dan Pasternack conducted the interview on February 18, 2004 in Brentwood, CA.
Highlights
Allan Burns on meeting Grant Tinker and the seed idea for The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the opening credits of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on placing the main setting of The Mary Tyler Moore Show in a newsroom and "Mary Richards" not being a married woman
Allan Burns on interviewing to work for Jay Ward on Rocky and His Friends
Allan Burns on creating "Cap'n Crunch"
Allan Burns on meeting James L. Brooks
Full Interview
Chapter 1
On his childhood and early influences; on attending military school; on moving to Hawaii
On how living in Hawaii developed his creativity; on studying architecture at the University of Oregon, leaving school, and moving to Los Angeles
Chapter 2
On becoming an NBC page; on being an usher for The Tonight Show with Steve Allen, The George Gobel Show, Colgate Comedy Hour, and Playwright '56
On graduating from the page program; on being a page on Queen for a Day and having to kick someone off the show
On becoming a reader for Pat Weaver's new NBC comedy shows; on his first writing job on Truth or Consequences
Chapter 3
On writing for Truth or Consequences for a month; on getting drafted, but a back injury preventing him from serving
On writing and drawing greeting cards; on interviewing at animation companies and doing some work for Format
On seeing Rocky and His Friends and wanting to work on it; on working on The Bullwinkle Show and promotions for the show and other Jay Ward Productions
Chapter 4
On editing and writing for Fractured Flickers and working for Jay Ward; on creating cereal ad icon "Cap'n Crunch"
On co-creating The Munsters with Chris Hayward and not getting credit for it
On writing for the sitcom The Smothers Brothers Show and having their work severely edited
Chapter 5
On getting hired to write for Four Star Playhouse; on co-creating My Mother The Car
On wanting to write for The Dick Van Dyke Show and receiving an inspirational letter from Sheldon Leonard; on working with Leonard Stern on He & She
On writing for Get Smart; on meeting director Jay Sandrich
Chapter 6
On joining the writing staff of Get Smart; on leaving to write a feature and parting ways with writing partner Chris Hayward; on meeting James L. Brooks
On getting involved with Room 222 with producer Gene Reynolds and writer James L. Brooks; on producing several episodes of Room 222
On meeting Grant Tinker and the seed idea for The Mary Tyler Moore Show; on running the story idea of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show by CBS (response - American audiences won't tolerate 4 things on TV: people from New York, divorce, Jews, and mustaches)
Chapter 7
On changing the concept of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show; on the initial pilot script and format of the show
On assembling the cast of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Chapter 8
On casting "Rhoda" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show; on the disastrous first rehearsal and shooting the pilot; on The Mary Tyler Moore Show benefiting from change-ups at CBS
On the theme song and opening credits of The Mary Tyler Moore Show; on the show's success on Saturday nights
On the show's writers and specific episodes of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Chapter 9
On notable episodes of The Mary Tyler Moore Show ("The Good-Time News", "Chuckles Bites the Dust") and the finale; on the legacy of the show
On the creation of Rhoda and Paul Sand in Friends and Lovers
On the creation of Lou Grant and making the show a drama rather than a comedy; on Ed Asner's political activism and how it affected Lou Grant
Chapter 10
On MTM and some of the company's star players; on the creation of MTM's The Duck Factory and Eisenhower & Lutz; on the end of MTM's heyday
On the creation of Cutters; on the highlight of his career; on advice to aspiring writer/producers
B-roll of greeting cards he created, promotions for The Bullwinkle Show; on his drawing for "Cap'n Crunch", on photos from shows on which he worked
Shows
Bullwinkle Show, The
Allan Burns on seeing Jay Ward's Rocky and His Friends and wanting to work on it
Allan Burns on Jay Ward's Rocky and His Friends becoming The Bullwinkle Show
Allan Burns on publicity and writing for Jay Ward's The Bullwinkle Show
Allan Burns on promotions for Jay Ward productions
Allan Burns on promotions for The Bullwinkle Show
Colgate Comedy Hour, The
Allan Burns on being an usher for The Colgate Comedy Hour
Crusader Rabbit
Allan Burns on Jay Ward creating Crusader Rabbit
Cutters
Allan Burns on the creation of Cutters
Dick Van Dyke Show, The
Allan Burns on wanting to write for The Dick Van Dyke Show and receiving an inspirational letter from Sheldon Leonard
Duck Factory, The
Allan Burns on the creation of MTM's The Duck Factory
Eisenhower & Lutz
Allan Burns on the creation of MTM's Eisenhower & Lutz and wanting Scott Bakula for the lead
Four Star Playhouse
Allan Burns on getting hired to write for Four Star Playhouse
Fractured Flickers
Allan Burns on promotions for Jay Ward productions
Allan Burns on the hardest work he's ever done - on Jay Ward's Fractured Flickers
George Gobel Show, The
Allan Burns on being an usher for The George Gobel Show
Get Smart
Allan Burns on writing for Get Smart
Allan Burns on joining the writing staff of Get Smart and the marriage of Agents 86 and 99
He & She
Allan Burns on working with Leonard Stern on He & She
It Could be You
Allan Burns on a questionable writer on the Ralph Edwards show It Could be You
Lou Grant
Allan Burns on the creation of Lou Grant and making the show a drama rather than a comedy
Allan Burns on Ed Asner's political activism and how it affected Lou Grant
M*A*S*H
Allan Burns on Gene Reynolds' style on M*A*S*H
Mary Tyler Moore Show, The
Allan Burns on meeting Grant Tinker and the seed idea for The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on running the story idea of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show by CBS (response - American audiences won't tolerate 4 things on TV: people from New York, divorce, Jews, and mustaches)
Allan Burns on creating "Rhoda Morgenstern's" character on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on changing the concept of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the initial pilot script and format of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on assembling the cast of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the disastrous first rehearsal and shooting the pilot of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show benefiting from change-ups at CBS
Allan Burns on the theme song and opening credits of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show's success on Saturday nights
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show's writers
Allan Burns on how he and James L. Brooks worked together on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "Support Your Local Mother"
Show co-creator Allan Burns on Mary Tyler Moore's expertise as an actress that allowed her to play the first part 'serious' of famed The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "Chuckles Bites the Dust," even when she had trouble keeping a straight face during dress rehearsal
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "The Good-Time News"
Allan Burns on the final episode of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the legacy of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on dividing his time between Rhoda, The Mary Tyler Moore Show and other MTM productions
Allan Burns on a photo from the 100th episode party for The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the final script of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Mary Tyler Moore Show, The: "Chuckles Bites the Dust"
Show co-creator Allan Burns on Mary Tyler Moore's expertise as an actress that allowed her to play the first part 'serious' of famed The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "Chuckles Bites the Dust," even when she had trouble keeping a straight face during dress rehearsal
Mary Tyler Moore Show, The: "Support Your Local Mother"
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "Support Your Local Mother"
Mary Tyler Moore Show, The: "The Last Show"
Allan Burns on the final episode of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Munsters, The
Allan Burns on co-creating The Munsters with Chris Hayward and having their idea stolen
My Mother the Car
Allan Burns on co-creating My Mother The Car
Paul Sand in Friends & Lovers
Allan Burns on the creation of Paul Sand in Friends and Lovers
Playwrights '56
Allan Burns on being a page on Fred Coe's Playwrights '56
Queen for a Day
Allan Burns on being a page on Queen for a Day and having to kick someone off the show
Rhoda
Allan Burns on the creation of Rhoda and the title character getting married
Room 222
Allan Burns on getting involved with Room 222 with producer Gene Reynolds and writer James L. Brooks
Allan Burns on writing for Room 222, working with James L. Brooks, and producing several episodes of the show
Smothers Brothers Show, The
Allan Burns on writing for the sitcom The Smothers Brothers Show and having their work severely edited
Taxi
Allan Burns on how great Taxi was
Tonight
Allan Burns on being an usher for The Tonight Show with Steve Allen
Truth or Consequences
Allan Burns on his first writing job on Truth or Consequences
Allan Burns on writing for Truth or Consequences for a month
Topics
Censorship / Standards & Practices
Allan Burns on running the story idea of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show by CBS (response - American audiences won't tolerate 4 things on TV: people from New York, divorce, Jews, and mustaches)
Allan Burns on placing the main setting of The Mary Tyler Moore Show in a newsroom and "Mary Richards" not being a married woman
Characters & Catchphrases
Allan Burns on creating "Cap'n Crunch"
Creative Influences and Inspiration
Allan Burns on how living in Hawaii developed his creativity
Emmy Awards
Allan Burns on winning an Emmy for He & She
Allan Burns on a memorable moment from the night he and Chris Hayward won an Emmy for He & She
Allan Burns on a photo of an Emmy win for The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Memorable Moments on Television
Allan Burns on being a page on "The Battler" starring Paul Newman and James Dean - an episode of Playwrights '56
Show co-creator Allan Burns on Mary Tyler Moore's expertise as an actress that allowed her to play the first part 'serious' of famed The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "Chuckles Bites the Dust," even when she had trouble keeping a straight face during dress rehearsal
Pop Culture
Allan Burns on creating "Cap'n Crunch"
Allan Burns on the theme song and opening credits of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Representation on Television
Allan Burns on placing the main setting of The Mary Tyler Moore Show in a newsroom and "Mary Richards" not being a married woman
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show and the feminist movement
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "Good Time News"
Television Industry
Allan Burns on running the story idea of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show by CBS (response - American audiences won't tolerate 4 things on TV: people from New York, divorce, Jews, and mustaches)
Allan Burns on placing the main setting of The Mary Tyler Moore Show in a newsroom and "Mary Richards" not being a married woman
TV Theme Songs
Allan Burns on the theme song and opening credits of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Vietnam War
Allan Burns on getting drafted in the Vietnam War, but a back injury preventing him from serving
War
Allan Burns on getting drafted in the Vietnam War, but a back injury preventing him from serving
We Laughed
Show co-creator Allan Burns on Mary Tyler Moore's expertise as an actress that allowed her to play the first part 'serious' of famed The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "Chuckles Bites the Dust," even when she had trouble keeping a straight face during dress rehearsal
Women
Allan Burns on placing the main setting of The Mary Tyler Moore Show in a newsroom and "Mary Richards" not being a married woman
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show and the feminist movement
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "Good Time News"
Professions
Producers
Allan Burns on producing several episodes of Room 222
Allan Burns on advice to aspiring writer/producers
Show Creators
Allan Burns on co-creating My Mother The Car
Writers
Allan Burns on deciding he wanted to be a television writer
Allan Burns on working on He & She and how it helped his writing
Allan Burns on advice to aspiring writer/producers
Genres
Animation
Allan Burns on interviewing at animation companies
Allan Burns on working on The Bullwinkle Show and promotions for the show and other Jay Ward Productions
Classic Anthology Series
Allan Burns on being a page on Fred Coe's Playwrights '56
Comedy Series
Allan Burns on writing for the sitcom The Smothers Brothers Show and having their work severely edited
Allan Burns on co-creating The Munsters with Chris Hayward and having their idea stolen
Allan Burns on working with Leonard Stern on He & She
Allan Burns on co-creating My Mother The Car
Allan Burns on meeting Grant Tinker, the seed idea for The Mary Tyler Moore Show and selling the initial concept to CBS executives
Allan Burns on writing for Room 222, working with James L. Brooks, and producing several episodes of the show
Allan Burns on the pilot script and assembling the cast of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the early days, staff, and memorable episodes of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on notable episodes of The Mary Tyler Moore Show ("The Good-Time News", "Chuckles Bites the Dust") and the finale; on the legacy of the show
Commercials
Allan Burns on creating "Cap'n Crunch"
Drama Series
Allan Burns on the creation of Lou Grant and making the show a drama rather than a comedy
Game Shows
Allan Burns on being a page on Queen for a Day and having to kick someone off the show
People
Don Adams
Allan Burns on a memorable moment from the night he and Chris Hayward won an Emmy for He & She
Edward Asner
Allan Burns on casting "Lou Grant" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the creation of Lou Grant and making the show a drama rather than a comedy
Allan Burns on Ed Asner's political activism and how it affected Lou Grant
Reza Badiyi
Allan Burns on the opening credits of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Scott Bakula
Allan Burns on the creation of MTM's Eisenhower & Lutz and wanting Scott Bakula for the lead
Richard Benjamin
Allan Burns on working with Richard Benjamin on He & She
Charles Boyer
Allan Burns on getting hired to write for Four Star Playhouse
James L. Brooks
Allan Burns on meeting James L. Brooks
Allan Burns on getting involved with Room 222 with producer Gene Reynolds and writer James L. Brooks
Allan Burns on working with James L. Brooks on Room 222
Allan Burns on meeting Grant Tinker and the seed idea for The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on changing the concept of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on how he and James L. Brooks worked together on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Jim Carrey
Allan Burns on discovering Jim Carrey for MTM's The Duck Factory
Allan Burns on a photo of Jim Carrey in MTM's The Duck Factory
Jack Cassidy
Allan Burns on working with Jack Cassidy on He & She
Fred Coe
Allan Burns on being a page on Fred Coe's Playwrights '56
Dabney Coleman
Allan Burns on the creation of MTM's Eisenhower & Lutz
Stan Daniels
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show's writers
Michael Dann
Allan Burns on running the story idea of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show by CBS (response - American audiences won't tolerate 4 things on TV: people from New York, divorce, Jews, and mustaches)
Allan Burns on CBS executives not loving The Mary Tyler Moore Show and disagreements within the network
Dave Davis
Allan Burns on producer Dave Davis helping to cast "Ted Baxter" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the opening credits of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show's writers
James Dean
Allan Burns on being a page on "The Battler" starring Paul Newman and James Dean - an episode of Playwrights '56
Jerry Van Dyke
Allan Burns on the cast of My Mother The Car
Ralph Edwards
Allan Burns on Truth or Consequences host Ralph Edwards
Valerie Harper
Allan Burns on casting "Rhoda" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the creation of Rhoda
Chris Hayward
Allan Burns on co-creating The Munsters with Chris Hayward and having their idea stolen
Allan Burns on writing for the sitcom The Smothers Brothers Show and having their work severely edited
Allan Burns on getting hired to write for Four Star Playhouse
Allan Burns on working on He & She
Allan Burns on parting ways with writing partner Chris Hayward
Jack Klugman
Allan Burns on casting "Lou Grant" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Ted Knight
Allan Burns on casting "Ted Baxter" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Perry Lafferty
Allan Burns on running the story idea of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show by CBS (response - American audiences won't tolerate 4 things on TV: people from New York, divorce, Jews, and mustaches)
Cloris Leachman
Allan Burns on casting "Phyllis" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Sheldon Leonard
Allan Burns on receiving an inspirational letter from Sheldon Leonard
David Lloyd
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show's writers
Gavin MacLeod
Allan Burns on casting "Lou Grant" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show and choosing Gavin MacLeod to play "Murray" instead of "Lou"
Mary Tyler Moore
Allan Burns on meeting Grant Tinker and the seed idea for The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on presenting the central concept of The Mary Tyler Moore Show to Mary Tyler Moore
Allan Burns on Mary Tyler Moore reading with Ed Asner as "Lou Grant" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Show co-creator Allan Burns on Mary Tyler Moore's expertise as an actress that allowed her to play the first part 'serious' of famed The Mary Tyler Moore Show episode "Chuckles Bites the Dust," even when she had trouble keeping a straight face during dress rehearsal
Lorenzo Music
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show's writers
Paul Newman
Allan Burns on being a page on "The Battler" starring Paul Newman and James Dean - an episode of Playwrights '56
David Niven
Allan Burns on getting hired to write for Four Star Playhouse
Arthur Price
Allan Burns on running the story idea of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show by CBS (response - American audiences won't tolerate 4 things on TV: people from New York, divorce, Jews, and mustaches)
Allan Burns on changing the concept of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on the theme song of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Marian Rees
Allan Burns on being a page on Fred Coe's Playwrights '56
Gene Reynolds
Allan Burns on getting involved with Room 222 with producer Gene Reynolds and writer James L. Brooks
Allan Burns on Gene Reynolds' style on M*A*S*H
Allan Burns on the creation of Lou Grant and making the show a drama rather than a comedy
Paul Sand
Allan Burns on the creation of Paul Sand in Friends and Lovers
Jay Sandrich
Allan Burns on working with director Jay Sandrich on He & She
Allan Burns on Jay Sandrich directing the pilot of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Fred Silverman
Allan Burns on Fred Silverman's ideas to make CBS young and urban and loving The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Treva Silverman
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show's writers
Aaron Spelling
Allan Burns on writing for the sitcom The Smothers Brothers Show, thought up by Aaron Spelling
Leonard Stern
Allan Burns on working with Leonard Stern on He & She
Arne Sultan
Allan Burns on working on He & She and how it helped his writing
Jay Tarses
Allan Burns on the creation of MTM's Eisenhower & Lutz
Brandon Tartikoff
Allan Burns on the creation of MTM's Eisenhower & Lutz and wanting Scott Bakula for the lead
Grant Tinker
Allan Burns on meeting Grant Tinker and the seed idea for The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on Grant Tinker helping to cast Ed Asner as "Lou Grant" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on Grant Tinker's support of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on defending Lou Grant to CBS, with Grant Tinker
Allan Burns on the talent Grant Tinker helped foster at MTM
Jay Ward
Allan Burns on Jay Ward's Rocky and His Friends and The Bullwinkle Show
Allan Burns on promotions for Jay Ward productions
Allan Burns on working for Jay Ward
Allan Burns on promotions for The Bullwinkle Show
Sylvester L. "Pat" Weaver
Allan Burns on becoming a reader for Pat Weaver's new NBC comedy shows and getting his first job as a writer
Ed. Weinberger
Allan Burns on The Mary Tyler Moore Show's writers
Ethel Winant
Allan Burns on Ethel Winant helping assemble the cast of The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Allan Burns on casting "Lou Grant" on The Mary Tyler Moore Show
Robert D. Wood
Allan Burns on running the story idea of "Mary Richards" being divorced on The Mary Tyler Moore Show by CBS (response - American audiences won't tolerate 4 things on TV: people from New York, divorce, Jews, and mustaches)
Allan Burns on CBS executives not loving The Mary Tyler Moore Show and disagreements within the network